Friday 22 April 2016

EU Referendum Text Debating....

As I returned home from work last night, the time was about 11.15pm.  The BBC's Question Time programme had been on for about 20 minutes.  

A good friend of mine texted me with his views on how the referendum debate was going.  However, with me being Pro-European, and my friend being Eurosceptic, a very healthy exchange of views followed via text.

MATE  You watching question time??

ME  Just getting home now in fact.

MATE  The yes campaign has just been schooled

ME  Brexit are still struggling to find a respectable friendly country who feels we should leave.....

MATE  Yea of course they want us to stay but we are GREAT BRITAIN and can survive on our own! Plus Europe would have to business on OUR terms not there's!

ME  Don't disagree that we would survive. But I consider you are very wrong to suggest any trading relationship would be just on our terms. After all, we are just one country against 26 others. Or put it another way we are 70 Million Market v a Market of 400 Million (without UK).

Oops.  There would actually be 27 Member States!

MATE  Yea but we are Germany's biggest customer I may be over the top about doing business on our terms but I think we would have a very favourable terms, for example how many BMWs Adudis Vws mercs and sokdas on the road do u think they will just stop selling them to us?

ME  Don't suggest Germany wouldn't want to trade. Let me give you an example relating to a specific EU alternative model- Norwegian model. At best they pay half per head of population into the EU budget (although I have seen other suggestions they pay the same) as us to gain full access to the Single Market. If we followed this route, we would have to accept EU directives, without even an opportunity to cast our very significant vote in Council of Ministers.

At this point, I will point out what I mean by my wording "our very significant vote in the Council of Ministers."  The Council of Ministers consists of Government Ministers from all member states.  The Ministers present will depend on the topic under discussion, for example Agriculture.  

The Council will vote on EU Directives, as proposed by the Commission.  As the UK has a population of 70 Million people, our vote strength is significantly stronger than Norway's would be, if Norway were to become an EU Member in the future.  The reason for this is that Norway's population is only around 5 Million people.

Proposals from the European Commission also have to be agreed jointly by the democratically elected European Parliament, as well as the Council.  Once again, as one of Europe's biggest Countries in terms of population, the UK has significantly more MEPs than Norway would have (if the Norwegians were ever to become full members).

ME  On another example, let's take a look at Swiss model. They have a series of bilateral treaties with the EU. One of them is free movement. As I understand it, the Swiss have tried to get free movement amended. But EU say no, and as a bloc of 500 Million people, who has all the power?

MATE  Yea but if we stay in we don't have any say the EU is undemocratic and we are powerless anyway, and whos to say that we don't strike our own unique deal which we could! Any we free movement I would scafire it because we would be able to use the visa waver program just like the Americans do we still have to go through passport control as it is anyway! How is this fair that a unskilled worker from anywhere in Europe which we don't need, but a doctor coming from India for example which we need as a skill is not able to come here freely and has to apply for a visa

MATE  God I have missed our debates me Watson lol

ME  How do you define an unskilled worker? If you wished to mention some types of farm workers doing basic picking of fruit, then I am sure there will be many farm owners who would disagree. On the democratic point, EU is not perfect. However, powers of Parliament have increased over many treaties since 1975. EP now has powers on EU budget. UK democracy is also not perfect taking on board the current govt can get elected with a majority on 37% of the vote. 

By Parliament and EP, I refer to the European Parliament.  My reference to the Government share of the vote, briefly touches my views on Britain's flawed First Past The Post electoral system.

ME  Also on the point of UK democracy, more absurd that Blair got an even bigger majority in 2005 on 35% of the vote!

The subject of Electoral Reform is another area in which my friend and I agree to disagree!

MATE  Ok, so people washing cars, flipping burgers, working in factories packing boxes for example skills that a person who could do without any education, I am not saying they are taking jobs from us because that is simply untrue I was just using that an example of how stupid free movement can be

MATE  I am not one of these people they are taking our jobs just highlighting how unfair it can b

ME  Very often these are jobs native Brits don't want. Immigration has therefore been vital to keep economy ticking over, not that I am saying we can take endless immigration. More generally, immigration is a matter we need engagement with our neighbours on.

MATE  Sate aid prime example that we cannot help out British industry's out when they need it or not being able to let British companies bid for major infucture projects which means tax payers money leaves the county! We cannot control our VAT rates we had to cap in hand to the EU to scrap the tax on tampons that's how little power we have!!

ME  And if we follow Norwegian model, we would be walking away from table and votes at intergovernmental level on issues like VAT.

MATE  Yea our neighbour won't negotiate on that why would they? Especially the eastern eropean countries who depend on there workers taking money out our economy

MATE  Yea but Andy we wouldn't be subject to their rules we can set our own vat rates our own corporation tax rates we wouldn't need to negotiate!

MATE  Commonwealth not common market xx

ME  Well my interpretation is that VAT implications are similar if we are in EEA.
https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

In other words, once again the Norwegian model in my view would make little difference to our powers on VAT.  If you  copy and paste the link above into an internet search engine, it can be seen it is stated that "goods moved from EFTA countries to EU member states are treated similarly to goods moved between EU member states."

MATE  I am taking about vat within the uk

ME  I realise that, but VAT rules are linked not just to EU, but arguably single market as well. 

Again, I make the case that the Norwegian model will not necessarilly restore British Governmental control on VAT, at least in the context of trading with Europe.  

I hope this has been informative.  Please VOTE REMAIN on June 23.